NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/9512

Internet Message Format | 1996-08-05 | 16.2 KB

Path: news.vol.it!news
From: [e-mail] (Fabio Bizzetti)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.games,alt.sys.amiga.demos,in,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
Subject: Re: AB3D II beats Quake....
Date: 23 Mar 1996 21:05:33 GMT
Organization: Video On Line
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: molcl6.vol.it
X-Newsreader: THOR 2.22 (Amiga;TCP/IP)


>On 20 Mar 1996, Odd H. Sandvik wrote:

>> Fabio Bizzetti ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>
>> : (PowerPC: btw, I bought a book and studied it, and I'm very
>> : disappointed IT SUCKS, all the other RISCs are better,
>> : starting from the old and cheap Transputers) and a different OS.
>>
>> Could you please explain why you think the PPC sucks ? Have you
>> bought books about all the other RISC's too ?

I've detailed technical infomations about:

ARM (Acorn RISC Machine)
IBM 801 (first sperimental RISC machine, 1975)
MIRIS (microcoded RISC by GMU)
MIPS (Microprocessor without Interlocked Pipeline Stages) by Stanford Univ.
88100 (superficially)
Pyramid
Ridge
Transputer (in details)
ROMP by IBM
HP (Precision Architecture)
MetaForth MF1600
CLIPPER


What can I say? I did expect much more from PowerPC, considering it's '90
technology. I understand that (due to commercial reasons) AT's choice was
very difficult, but PowerPC+standard_gfx_chips is the worst choice they could
have done. Probably the best and more equilibrated was PowerPC+AAAA (or
whatever could be called the latest Amiga chipset), although IMO the very
best choice (a bit risky though) would have been 68060+HombreHP/PA (with the
simple modify to use bandwidth of more modern EDO rams) for high-end machines,
and 68030+HombreHP/PA (same as before) for low-end.
Please understand that 68060 is not a lame CPU, and that in modern computers
the biggest part of cpu power is used for tasks where coprocessors can
improve things a lot. The HP-PA RISC CPU, although seen as an "add-on",
would have performed FPU computations much faster (and parallely) to the
68060 (or lower). Compatibility would have been fully respected. The HP-PA
would have been seen (finally) as a tasks' resource, allocable with
priorities. It would have been possible to program games using the OS,
because having 2 intelligent subsystems would have eliminated all the CPU
overhead problems. *Every* old program would have worked fully, and the new
ones would have got huge advantages both by the custom HP-PA and also by
the old chips, if not for raw performances, at least for independence (thus
allowing things impossible with a single CPU (read: critical temporized
audio/video applications)), and with the same old good OS still there.
The Hombre would have costed practically nothing: it was already designed
for a cheap (but incredibly powerful) console. The cheap 68030/40Mhz of
today would have been fully sufficient with these extra capabilities.
The 68060 in high-end systems would have been fully sufficient to get the
most from old programs, while new ones would have gained by the asyncronous
new RISC (and cheap) Amiga, this time finally all through the OS with no
overhead. It would have also been possible to add an infinite number of
custom HP-PA to the Amiga system.

But AT/Escom just wanted to sell their PC's also to Amiga users: changing
the (very good nowadays) Pentium with a PPC603 (laaaaame) and putting the
sticker "Amiga".

bah..the IBM PC now is also in another version: to run a kind of AmigaOS clone.

>I think the PPC is by all means an improvement,

surely, compared to 68030

 or

if we must keep a single CPU, a PPC604 is better also than a 68060, because
68060 has no future. But keeping the 680x0, the power of it would have been
*fully* sufficient (also of a 68030) to handle the whole computer handling,
and serve tasks to use the new RISC subsystem, with no apparent overhead.
The 68060 would have been useful in high-end machines only to keep
compatibility with old software, that already did ask a 68040/68060.

>but AT might have taken a
>bit of a risk and made a better choice instead.  I would have loved to
>have seen Sparc modules supported.

The *custom* (meaning lotsa times better) HP-PA RISC CPU was there!
HP-PA and Commodore had a tight relationship, they already were working
together since a lot of time. HP-PA has a future, and is perhaps the best
RISC CPU available in a MultiMedia market. It is also one of the fastest
FloatingPoint cruncher out there. The fastest HP-PA kicks ass of PPC620,
that today is "not sure if we'll be available" because they discovered it's
not practically faster than 604... that is not tha fast indeed.

PowerPC has been designed by IBM: I dont need to add anything else.

>If they'd just face reality, they'd
>see that the Amiga will not EVER compete with PC's or Macs on the same
>markets... it always had its own niche, BECAUSE it was different and
>because that created excitement and loyalty amongst the users.  It was
>Amiga users who sold most of the new machines... not Commodore's
>marketing.  However, there's been nothing new to carry that excitement for
>years, so things are dying, if they aren't dead already.  So far, AT have
>done absolutely NOTHING for the loyal followers.  All they seem intent on
>doing is following the crowd, making some token gestures towards unifying
>the Amiga userbase with the more common platforms, and producing tacky,
>gimmicky hardware that isn't an upgrade for 50% of users.  Seriously, the
>Walker is a joke, when you can buy a second hand system (or keep your
>existing one) with higher specs for the same or less money.  Where are the
>OS improvements?  Where are the incentives for existing users of
>higher-spec Amigas?  Oh yes, wait an indefinite period, then pay a huge
>premium for PPC cards... and follow the crowd... well, you could, if the
>OS was improved to the standard that a lot of other platforms enjoy.

>> : It seems that AT said << *everything* must be done with the OS,
>> : If AT wants this shit from PowerAmiga, then IMHO the *last*
>> : Amiga will be the 680x0 and AGA based ones. The PowerAmiga
>> : will be a PC with just another CPU.
>>
>> No, It will run AmigaOS. Don't you see that the OS is the ONLY
>> advantage the Amiga has today! It lacks in all other
>> departments!

Why??
It's about time to make new custom chips!
AGA is still 1983 technology, with x4 bandwidth (to RGB..).

WHO SAID THAT IT IS NORMAL TO NOT HAVE NEW CUSTOM CHIPS????

Commodore didn't die because they spent all their money to make new custom
chips: Commodore died because they didn't spend money to make new custom
chips.

Is it so difficult to understand?

Wouldn't the Amiga be the most sold games machine (with best market) if we
had AAA when it was time to have it (lotsa years ago)? Wouldn't the Amiga
(both high-end and low-end) have *no competition* if 3 years ago (when
PowerMac did born), or also today, it had HP-PA Hombre?
Commodore died because they delayed the technology improvements.
Commodore died because while the market (not only computers) had a huge demand
of highperformances/lowcost chips, it missed all the opportunities.
Watch "The Deathbed Vigil" about all the missed occasions.

Escom/AT is sincerely acting *worse* than the Commodore of 1991.

They're blind, accustomed to sell PC's to people that would buy *anything*.
But the Amiga is not attractive for these standard users, and will always
be seen as the most silly way to risk money and time.

>Heh, are you implying that the OS isn't lacking?  How about these:

>* Virtual Memory.
>* Memory Protection.
>* Resource Tracking.
>* A decent file system.

Now they've to convert the whole OS from 680x0 to PowerPC, and it'll take
ages, will be full of bugs: and the final result will not be considerably
better than before, but much more complex.
Instead, adding the HP-PA subsystem would have made all *simple*, logical,
immediate, simple, performant...

>* An attractive, consistent GUI.

Perfectly handled by the HombreHP-PA, parallely.

>* A good API and strong developers tools.

Adding the HombreHP-PA would have made it practically 0 overhead, thus used
by all Amiga games programmers: when a needed function wouldn't have been
found in the API, the programmer would have created it, and released a
patch for all users (and games programmers) that then would have been
integrated in the next OS revision, rom or disk.
Upgrading/changing the whole RISC subsystem would have been possible and easy.

>* Device independance.

2 subsystems: Amiga 680x0 and RISC HP-PA Hombre (one or more), where the AGA
would have been emulated by the Hombre (providing that it is not a fucking
SVGA standard chip: it's the state of the art techonology, able to emulate
AGA's copper as nothing).

>Last but not least, where are our developers and publishing houses?

As I said before, I (an extreme Amiga "fanatic") will not code for a *PC* with
PowerPC cpu and no market rather than for a PC with a 80686 cpu and a huge
market. Just because it has the sticker "Amiga" doesn't make it different
than what it is: a *IBM PC*.

Now imagine who never cared about the Amiga: what economical interests will the
developer see in the PowerAmiga?? If he is mad, he can risk all for the BeBox:
but also if he doesn't lose money and sells as much as practically possible, he
will *never* earn more than he can do on the PC with Windows96 or anything else.
And developing programs on Windows95 and then recompiling them on PowerAmiga
OS, although not realistically possible without changes, will still be a crap
conversion. A buyer gets a PC and gets the software instead of its shadow.

Remove the Amiga's heart: you get nothing.

>> : The A1000/A500 and A2000 were dream computers IMO because of
>> : their custom chips and architecture, not because of the lame
>> : 1.0/1.1/1.2 OS.
>>
>> Yeah, right... Maybe in 1985. Today the custom chips is the
>> weakest part of the Amiga architecture.

Again: why you talk about 1985 custom chips in the 1996?
Who ever said that it's normal and sane to have them today?
Amiga custom chipset+ is not SVGA, it's AAA, AAAA, Hombre. NOT SVGA.

It's sooooo naive to say that the Amiga has to become a IBM PC because the
A500's gfx chip today are obsolete. Who ever promised "you'll have to use
them for the eternity"? The OS evolves, the hard-disks evolve, the ram evolves,
the cpu evolves. Now it's time to evolv the *custom* chips, not to throw
everything out of the window (projects included) and buy a IBM PC, change the
CPU, put the sticker "Amiga" and run a fake AmigaOS clone.

>I would actually say that at this point, the weakest part of the Amiga
>platform is its manufacturer.  The OS and the hardware run an equal
>second.

>> What other _viable_ and _affordable_ CPU would YOU choose for
>> the Amiga ?

HP-PA due to the optimal relationship HP and Commodore had, and due to its
extremely fast FloatingPoint capabilities, and due to its upgradability
(HP-PA is a family of processors, all damn faster than most other RISCs),
due to the unique possibility to customize also the CPU (as HP offers).

If you want more, then it's not of this world.

>HP-PA, Sparc, Alpha, in fact, name your processor... if only AT would cut
>the AmigaOS losses, move a long way to portable source (instead of taking
>the cheap-shot option with 68k emulation on the PPC).

Look: if you have a car, you can change motor and put a better one, and so on.
AT/Escom waited when you weren't watching, changed the whole car, painted it
again like the old one, and tryed to give you the same cockpit. This car is
exactly the one you always hated, except for the cockpit and the color.

I would complain hard.

>> : Well,from the deepest of my heart: FUCK OFF AT,
>> : you made it all become useless.
>>
>> Sure. This is just the constructive feedback AT needs. NOT!

For what I've seen untill now, "constructive" and "AT/Escom" are two words I
wouldn't put together without feeling a foolish.
"Have faith, wait more": this is old, and became obsolete now.
There's a limit, when you see things how really are, there's no way anymore
to hope.

And my anger was completely justified by all the money I wasted and lost
(instad of earning much more than the one I've spent) because I "waited and
hoped".

So mine was a very constructive remark: if AT is reading this, it should
consider that many developers dont trust them anymore, because now it's
clear what their future plans are, and only Escom's business likes them:
they'll be the first company able to sell *IBM PC's* to ex "fanatic" Amiga
users.

Sure some people will still prefer to hope to get the same Windows'95
utilities compiled for the PowerAmiga, but this is all the PAmiga market
and reason to exist. I believe Escom thinks:
"He doesn't want to buy my PC? I sell him the one with the other CPU and
the stickers that I bought nearly for free at that auction sale. WOW:
I sell my PC's to every people, this is business".


>Essentially, AT is giving the existing users that very message.  They're
>alienating existing users in order to sell to supposed new markets.  Well,
>here's where my unwavering support ends I'm afraid.  I'll keep my existing
>system as my favourite old companion and novelty,

I was waiting for PowerAmiga, but since it's a PC I just bought a 68060 for
my Amiga, and will develop on my Amiga all the games for it and for 80x86 PC,
to get some earning from this last (job) and to keep my passion for Amiga
(hobby). It's much better to work on Amiga, developing and testing algorithms,
making graphics and sounds, then re "compile" my HLA sources and data for PC.
The 68060 is the best, I dont want a crap buggy slow PowerPC to do the same.

>and I'm moving on to a
>Sparcstation, and a portable Mac.  That way I can actually get things
>done, and still play with my Amiga, writing a program here and there.  I
>sincerely hope that AT finds a new market, and I regret that the direction
>that they're following no longer suits my needs.

Neither mine and of all the people that left the Amiga (I will publish all my
games and programs also for 680x0 Amiga untill at least a single publisher
wants them, (there're only 2 or 3 left to be sincere) because I will make them
for my internal use though, also in the year 2002), and there's a lot of people
that will leave the Amiga market soon just because it's always smaller and
smaller while piracy is growing.

While Motorola abandoned 680x0, Intel has not abandoned 80x86, that will never
die IMO (I am technically sure about it).
It was time to *add* a HP-PA to the Amiga.

IMO the PowerAmiga experiment will finish soon, Escom will reconvert the
machines to run PowerMac software, still using Commodore name for PC's and
Amiga name for RISC PC's.

 Names.

The PowerAmiga will have more IBM chips inside than a Pentium has today.

>The amount of support that AT is getting from the users which it primarily
>intends to make money from is ridiculous, I've never seen anything like
>it.  Most companies actually need to give something back to the users to
>keep them loyal and ready to spend.

>Peter Naylor


PS: [nothing] Pet,Vic20,C64,Amiga,(philosophy changes),AGA-Amiga [nothing]

Thanks Commodore, you've *been* the best of all untill business destroyed you.



BTW: It's official: Dave Haynie is *NOT* moving to Germany, nor working for AT.
He personally corrected the rumor, saying an equivalent of "dont trust rumors,
there's rarely something true in them".




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                                            |
|           Stop that fucking imperialist embargo against Cuba.              |
|                 Hasta Siempre Comandante Che Guevara.                      |
|                                                                            |
|                                                                            |
|    Fabio "Maverick" Bizzetti - [e-mail] - Maverick* at IRC     |
|              The maker of "CyberMan" and "Virtual Karting"                 |
|   working on "Virtual Rally" and "StarFighter", the 3D game that will      |
|                        bring the Amiga to the top                          |
|                                                                            |
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